Minutes of the Fortieth Session of the Brazilian National Security Council

MINUTES OF THE FORTIEH MEETING OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL

On October 4, 1967, at 10:02 AM, in the city of Brasília, Federal Distrrict, the National Security Council met under the presidency of His Excellency Marshal Arthur da Costa e Silva, President of the Republic, with the presence of the following members: Dr. Pedro Aleixo, Vice-President of the Republic; General Jaime Portella de Mello, Head of the Military Household of the Presidency of the Republic and Secretary-General of the National Security Council; Congressman Rondon Pacheco, Extraordinary Minister for Civilian Household Affairs; Dr. Luiz Antonio da Gama e Silva, Minister of Justice; Admiral Augusto Hamman Rademaker Grunewald, Minister of the Navy; General Aurelio Lira Tavares, Minister of the Army; Congressman José de Magalhães Pinto, Minister of External Relations; Dr. Antonio Delfim Netto, Minister of Finance; Colonel Mario David Andreazza, Minister of Transportation; Dr. Ivo Arzua Pereira, Minister of Agriculture; Congressman Tarso de Morais Dutra, Minister of Education and Culture; Senator Jarbas Gonçalves Passarinho, Minister of Labor and Social Security; Marshal Marcio de Souza e Mello, Minister of Aeronautics; Dr. Leonel Tavares Miranda, Minister of Health; Congressman José Costa Cavalcanti, Minister of Mines and Energy; General Edmundo de Macedo Soares e Silva, Minister of Industry and Commerce; Dr. Helio Marcos Penna Beltrão, Minister of Planning and General Coordination, General Afonso Augusto de Albuquerque Lima, Minister of the Interior; Professor Carlos Furtado de Simas, Minister of Communications;  General Emilio Garrastazu Medici, Head of the National Information Service; General (Air Force) Nelson Freire Lavenere Wanderley, Chief of the Armed Forces Staff, AdmiralJosé Moreira Maia, Chief of the Navy Staff, General Orlando Geisel, Head of the Army Staff, General (Air Force)Carlos Alberto Huet de Oliverira Sampaio, Chief of the Air Force Staff.

The President: The National Security Council meets for the first time during this Administration. Its members include His Excellency the Vice-President of the Republic, the Heads of the Civilian and Military Households, all Ministers of State,  the Chief of the Armed Forces and the Chiefs of Staff of the three branches of the Armed Forces – Army, Navy and Air Force. At the outset I greet all members of the Council and I declare the Session open. The floor will be given to the Secretary-General of the National Security Council, who is also the Head of the Military Household of the Presidency of the Republic. The only item on the agenda of the meeting is the presentation of proposals for Guidelines by the Government in the field of nuclear energy. The Secretary-General has the floor.

The Head of the Military Household: Mr. President, members of the National Security Council - (reads) - On May 5 this year, His Excellency the President of the Republic, Arthur da Costa e Silva, drew the general guidelines for Brazil in the field of nuclear energy. That was his first concrete act, confirming previous public statements, to which, in a logical crescendo, other measures and decisions followed, culminating in the Guidelines now under study. On that occasion, His Excellency took the following decision on a study elaborated by this General Secretariat: (reading with emphasis and in a slower rhythm) “ONE – I authorize the proposed measures. Upon signature, our definitive understanding of the Treaty Prohibiting Nuclear Weapons in Latin America should be declared (pause). Proposed measures: for the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons inLatin America – Treaty of Mexico – the measures proposed by the Secretariat were: to sign the treaty; to wait for the implementation of the conditions imposed by Brazil, Argentina and other countries regarding ratification and entry into force; to declare, in writing, upon the signature, the understanding of Article eighteen, that Brazil considers definitive; to provide support with regard to the internal public, through coordinated action by the Ministry of External Relations, the National Security Council and the National Nuclear Energy Council; - To support the measures already adopted by the Ministry of External Relations through the Confidential Note sent to our diplomatic missions  in Latin America; to strengthen the measures already adopted by the Ministry of External Relations abroad, by the dispatch of a roving delegation to the Latin American countries, particularly Argentina, Chile, Peru, Colombia, Venezuela, Ecuador, Uruguay and Paraguay. Such delegation should be composed of a representative of the Ministry of External Relations, a representative of the General Secretariat of the National Security Council, a representative of the National Nuclear Energy Council, a representative of the National Information Service and a representative of the Armed Forces Staff. To draw up a Guideline based on the presidential decision encompassing all views and positions defended by Brazil in the form of the Adopted Line of Action. To distribute it for the guidance of all agencies related to the National Nuclear Energy Policy.

Regarding the Disarmament Conference in Geneva, the measures were:  to enter in preliminary contact with all non-nuclear countries in a position similar to that of Brazil in order to coordinate common action in defense of the right to peaceful use of nuclear energy, including, and this is indispensable, the carrying out of peaceful nuclear explosions for development objectives. To stimulate some of these countries (Sweden, Germany and others) to defend the right to carry out peaceful explosions, through the possibility of common efforts to connect hydrographic basins or other significant civilian works in the Brazilian territory. To start preliminary conversations with France with the same objective.  The same procedure with non-aligned countries, through our representatives in Geneva. To seek support to the Brazilian views, with regard to the Conference in Geneva, with Latin American countries, preferably, Argentina, Venezuela, Uruguay and Peru; ideally, such support should mean securing a Position Paper from each country;  by obtaining such support Brazil will be placed as the true representative of Latin America to the detriment of Mexico and this will strengthen our position before the non-aligned countries. To support the measures already adopted by the Ministry of External Relations through the Confidential Note sent to our diplomatic missions in Latin America.  To provide information to the internal public through coordinated action by the Ministry of External Relations, National Security Council and National Nuclear Energy Commission. To strengthen the measures already adopted by the Ministry of External Relations abroad, by the dispatch of a roving delegation to the Latin American countries, particularly Argentina, Chile, Peru, Colombia, Venezuela, Ecuador, Uruguay and Paraguay. Such delegation should be composed of a representative of the Ministry of External Relations, a representative of the General Secretariat of the National Security Council, a representative of the National Nuclear Energy Council, a representative of the National Information Service and a representative of the Armed Forces Chiefs of Staff. To draw up a Guideline based on the present study encompassing all views and positions defended by Brazil and in accordance with the presidential decisions on the Treaty of Mexico. To distribute it for the guidance of all interested agencies in a timely manner, with a view to the guidance to be followed in Geneva. To direct the Brazilian representatives in Geneva and to the Ministry of External Relations to keep  the Government permanently updated about the proceedings of the Conference. To take a decision when the situation is clarified regarding the final text of the Treaty. (pause) (reads with greater emphasis and more slowly).  TWO – To send to the Ministry of External Relations the study undertaken by the General Secretariat of the National Security Council for guidance on the measures to be adopted regarding the Treaty of Mexico and the Conference on Disarmament in Geneva (pause).  – Retrospect. Before discussing the merit of these Guidelines, we deem it necessary to look back in order to mark the points that we believe to be basic and essential. On the forthcoming December 2 the twenty-fifth anniversary of the first nuclear chain reaction will be celebrated. That is, in 1942, twenty-five years ago, the world entered the Nuclear Age. Brazil dealt officially with this subject in 1947, when it sought to attend to something we already admitted to possessing, that is, it created the Commission on the Study and Oversight of Strategic Minerals, for governmental control of uranium and thorium minerals. In 1951, Law 1.310 set the norms for the export of uranium, thorium and its mineral compounds, by prescribing officially that exports would be carried out “through international agreements from government to government.” In 1952 the Commission on the Export of Strategic Minerals was established under the Ministry of External Relations. In 1953 the General Secretariat of this Council defended, in an Exposição de Motivos and other documents the view that Brazil should receive specific compensation for the supply of strategic minerals, geared to the “preparation of Brazil for the nuclear age.” It further argued that all exports should be exclusively directed to the promotion of scientific, technological and industrial development, in the absence of a contrary decision by the National Security Council. In 1954 the General Secretariat, concerned with subject and in view of the high interests of the country elaborated a project of “Guidelines for a National Atomic Energy Program.” As a result of successive efforts, in 1956 the National Security Council, based on an Opinion by the Studies Commission for the Nuclear Energy Policy, came to conclusions and recommendations that were approved and adopted by the President of the Republic, who transformed them into “Governmental Guidelines for the National Nuclear Energy Policy.” Based on those Guidelines, the National Nuclear Energy Commission – CNEN – was established by Decree no. 40.110, in the same year . Finally, in 1962, by Law no. 4.118, that Commission was restructured and given the status it still has to-day. (pause). Foundations of the Governmental Policy. – With a view to the establishment of a Governmental policy in the nuclear field the President of the Republic directed this General Secretariat to elaborate a specific study and to observe the fundamental points below, which had already served as a basis for the work of this General Secretariat that gave rise to the decision transcribed above, as guidance for the signature of the Treaty of Mexico and for the attitude of our representation in Geneva. First foundation: The right to utilize nuclear energy for peaceful purposes, as a primary factor of national development and as support for our security and prospects of progress for all of Latin America. Second foundation: The collaboration of all countries more advanced in this field, in order to establish a national technical basis and implement nuclear industry in our territory. Third foundation: Cooperation with countries having a technical level similar to ours, particularly those in Latin America. Fourth foundation:  Definition, in time and space, of objectives, responsibilities and functions, measures and conditions of execution necessary to the establishment of a policy.  Fifth foundation:  Rational, objective and realistic planning based on our needs and real assets. Sixth foundation: Judicious use and precise coordination of the means and equipment already available, with a concentration of efforts, in the initial stage, on existing centers, in Rio de Janeiro, São Paulo and Belo Horizonte. Seventh foundation:  The situation and reorganization of the National Nuclear Energy Commission in conformity with the fundamental principles established by Decree-Law no. 200, of February 1967, “Administrative Reform” and based on the present Guidelines. Eighth foundation:  The firm determination of Brazil to collaborate for the prohibition of nuclear weapons the world over, in defense of world peace, through the establishment of treaties worked out within the international organizations to which we belong; the adoption of objective, realistic and fair measures which, in guaranteeing the realization of these wishes, are not changed into means to curtail the development of countries considered as non-nuclear. (pause).  Guidelines. Based on those foundations, the General Secretariat of the National Security Council elaborated the proposal for the National Nuclear Energy Policy, spelled out in these Guidelines, with the technical collaboration of the Ministry of Mines and Energy. They clearly spell out that the responsibility for the political activities is entrusted to: the President of the Republic, regarding general guidance; -  the Ministry of Mines and Energy, through the National Nuclear Energy Commission, regarding implementation; - the Ministry of External Relations, regarding political-diplomatic advice in the elaboration and signature of agreements and conventions with foreign governments and private entities and international organizations. The  administrative functions will be performed by the Ministry of Mines and Energy, either directly or through the National Nuclear Energy Commission. It should also be stressed that with regard to the conditions for execution the establishment of five-year, annual and sectorial programs, as well as specific projects, were proposed. (pause). (reading ends). The document named National Nuclear Energy Policy – Guidelines  - elaborated by the General Secretariat, was distributed to all members of the National Security Council upon the convening of this Session. Those were, Mr. President, the points I wished to make as Secretary-General of this Council.

The President – As the General Secretary just mentioned, the General Secretariat handed out a copy of the document to each member of the Council, certainly about thirty days ago; therefore there has been enough time for the study, thinking over and formulation of suggestions in this regard. Each member, particularly those closer to the issue, have the duty, I will not say the right, to present suggestions to the Council, so that, in the light of the debate, the President of the Republic may have useful suggestions for his decision. The Council is a consultative, not a deciding organ,  and so there will not be here the usual procedure of an assembly, that of voting. The Council shall bring its ideas to the President of the Republic who then will be in a better position to decide on the issue. I shall begin the debate by calling on those Ministers more closely linked with the subject. I shall start with the Minister of Mines and Energy, to whom, according to item 3.1.1 of the proposed Guidelines, the execution is entrusted  - (reads) “The carrying out of the national nuclear energy policy is entrusted to the Ministry of Mines and Energy, through the National Nuclear Energy Commission.” So, according to the established order, the Minister of Mines and Energy has the floor in order to make his suggestions on the proposed Guidelines presented to the Council.

The Minister of Mines and Energy – Mr. President, members of the Council, I have examined with the greatest interest the basic document that was conveyed to me by the General Secretariat of the National Security Council. At the start, Mr. President, since it was a document coming from the National Security Council and dealing with the national nuclear energy policy, I found it to be too detailed. Nevertheless, after thinking over the implications of theses Guidelines for the future, and taking into account that the subject is very much under focus, I thought that the document should really be as it has been presented, that is, meticulous. Another general observation is the role assigned to the Ministry of Mines and Energy, in many aspects, as a bridge between the Government and the National Nuclear Energy Commission. Tasks are given to the Commission, but it is under the jurisdiction of the Ministry. I discussed the subject with the Secretary-General of the Council, and he clarified that this stemmed from the possibility that the Administrative Reform might create the Ministry of Science and Technology, under which that Commission could be placed, thus escaping the purview of the Ministry of Mines and Energy. The document itself lists some assignments as specific to the Ministry and others to the National Nuclear Energy Commission. As Minister, I have no difficulty with the maintenance of that situation. Examining the document itself, about item one, Objectives, I believe a Preamble is necessary. I found it in the document itself, on item 3 point 1: “Responsibilities: the Brazilian Government reserves….” Perhaps this item could be placed in the caput of the Preamble, by saying: “The Government of Brazil….” Only the language would change, because the document from the General Secretariat of the Council reads: “The Brazilian Government reserves to itself the right of total exclusiveness in what regards the guidance and execution of all activities in the field of nuclear energy.” In this sentence, I detected a pleonasm, that is, “total exclusiveness.” Perhaps the word “exclusiveness” would suffice, because it says all, unless there is a desire for greater emphasis. As for the guidance and execution, I believe the Government could not have under its purview the carrying out of all activities in the field of nuclear energy. I refer, for instance, to the use of radioisotopes in medicine and agriculture. I believe the Government will not carry out such activities. I would, therefore, rephrase this Article, which could become part of item  1 – Objectives, or remain in item 3, if the Council so decides. The drafting is important. I thus propose the following language: “The Government of Brazil reserves to itself the exclusive right to develop, with a view to obtaining self-sufficiency, all activities related to the applications of nuclear energy.” This is my first observation.

The President of the Republic – Do you have this proposal in writing?

The Minister of Mines and Energy – I do. As for item 1 – Objectives – and 2 – Objectives to be achieved –  I have no observations. In item 2. 2.3, the basic document reads: “To produce the nuclear fuels necessary to meet the needs.” I think this wording is not convenient. I Suggest “nuclear fuels corresponding or sufficient “, just changing the adjective so that there is no redundancy of “necessary” with “needs.” It is just a drafting problem. I would give another form to item 3.1, previously  examined. I would draft item 3.1.1 as follows: “The Ministry of Mines and Energy is entrusted, through the agencies under its jurisdiction, in particular the National Nuclear Energy Commission, with the planning and execution of the national nuclear energy policy.”  When I mentioned the agencies under its jurisdiction, I mean  that when Brazil elaborates a project to establish a nuclear plant for the production of nuclear energy, the National Nuclear Energy Commission shall work together with Eletrobrás, which is the agency that would build and later operate the facility. I believe, therefore, that other organs of the Ministry would be interested in the problem. As for prospection, this subject is dealt with both by the National Energy Commission and the National Department of Mineral Production, another organ of the Ministry. I believe it has been demonstrated that this change is necessary.  Regarding item 3.2, the document says that the links with the Ministries should be made “through the National Nuclear Energy Commission…” , In my view such links should be made at the ministerial level and not through the Commission. It is just a question of a drafting change and of placement in the document, these links being assigned to the Ministry.

The President of the Republic: All other items, except those regarding the links, may remain as they are, through the Commission. To elaborate programs… to establish priorities… to interest entities…

The Minister of Mines and Energy:  Since they are within the ministerial purview, such links should perhaps not be entrusted to the Commission, according to the very ethics of functioning, because its President does not have the same easy linkage with the Minister, nor enough rank…

The President of the Republic : Another wording can be found in order to meet the observation.

The Minister of Mines and Energy: Still on item 3.2, where the objectives of such links are mentioned, one can read: “Ministry of Industry and Commerce, with a view to commercialization of fissionable and fertile materials, the establishment of the industry linked to the nuclear sector, the guarantee of national techniques after hearing the the National Security Council” The law that created the National Nuclear Energy Commission  assigns to it all this question of the commercialization of fissionable and fertile materials. In this case, it is only a question of cooperation. I make this observation but I believe it is interesting to leave the item as it is. I think it is important, in what regards the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, the incentive to the participation of national industry in the nuclear energy field, which I see is encouraged in the expression “the establishment of the industry linked to the nuclear sector.”  As for the Ministry of Agriculture, I believe there is a small detail not needed (reads) “Ministry of Agriculture with a view to study” (he makes an observation) -  it should read “with a view to the study” – and “research related to the application of nuclear energy to agrarian and cattle-raising activities.” I would stop there; if the detail about “fight against plagues and harmful insects” stays in, it would imply the need for the inclusion of other details, also unnecessary. The reference to agrarian and cattle-raisingactivities already includes the combat against diseases and harmful insects.

The President of the Republic : Exactly, the specification of this detail would entail the specification of others…

The Minister of Mines and Energy : (reads) –Staff of the Armed Forces and Military Ministries. With a view to the coordination [he makes a grammar observation about the Brazilian verb visar] – by the way, this is an intransitive verb. It should be followed by the preposition a.  Regarding the Armed Forces and the Military Ministries, perhaps it would be advisable to separate them in different items. My suggestion in this regard is the same as that of the Ministry of the Navy. In my view, the Staff of the Armed Forces and the Military Ministries have different functions in this regard. With respect to the same item (reads) “with a view to coordinating the use of military learning, research, manufacture and logistics institutions, in the formation of personnel and in the development of special techniques and equipment in the sector, the document is secret, but whoever reads it may deduce that Brazil is preparing for the bomb. Certainly there will be this wrong  interpretation  to the expression “formation of personnel and in the development of special techniques and equipment in the sector” in the item on the Military Ministries. Perhaps it should be changed to “equipment related to the peaceful applications of nuclear energy in the sector.”

The President of the Republic: Equipment related to the peaceful applications of nuclear energy in the sector.  

The Minister of Mines and Energy: It is a point for discussion, perhaps this document could be more general, without specifying this detail, but Brazil, through the statements of the President of the Republic, those of the Minister of External Relations and even mine, has been stressing the peaceful applications… the peaceful uses… I believe this change would be convenient.

The President of the Republic: Brazil is bound by established agreements.

The Minister of Mines and Energy: I have no further observations regarding the document.  Just one point on the meaning of the term research or prospection. Prospection is considered wider, more generic that the word research. It is a question of language. In some places it might be interesting to replace the word “prospection” for “research.” These are, Mr. President, the observations I wished to make on the document.

The President of the Republic : You have these observations in writing. I request that you hand them later to the General Secretariat so that we can have a further look at them. According to item 3.1.2, to the Ministry of External Relations are assigned… etc., etc., and for this reason I give the floor to the Minister of External Relations.

The Minister of External Relations: Mr. President, members of the National Security Council. First of all, I wish to congratulate the General Secretariat of the National Security Council for the detailed work presented, which basically reflects a serious and silent study of a  matter  that is now of concern to all countries. As all of you know, I have just returned from several international meetings and at all of them this is the prevailing subject, the touchy subject. We know now that the two big nuclear powers arrived at an understanding on the question and that the number of countries that do not possess nuclear energy and want to use it is very large. They need, for this, to organize themselves, decide exactly what they want and advance firmly toward the desired objectives. In several statements made through the Ministry of External Relations, according to your instructions, Brazil has reiterated its wish to utilize nuclear energy for peaceful purposes. By the way, the Treaty of Mexico prohibits the use of nuclear energy for military objectives, but authorizes its use for peaceful purposes. The several conversations I have had have been difficult. We are going to have many problems. This is a new field that came up for the development and the big countries, who are the masters of nuclear energy, because of the development they achieved through it, will not wish to give ground. There is this constant allegation that total knowledge of the matter will result in countries being easily able to produce an atomic bomb. Despite its peaceful tradition, Brazil has not been understood, no matter how much it repeats this. I believe, Mr. President, that we are on the right path in examining this issue with maximum seriousness. My Ministry has studied the document presented and prepared some amendments, which I brought in writing and with your permission I shall distribute to the Ministers, so that they can more easily examine them.  Many of the amendments I shall propose have already been dealt with by my distinguished colleague, Minister Costa Cavalcanti. I repeat them, nevertheless, so that the General Secretariat of the Council may appreciate them for the elaboration of the final document and avail itself of the more objective amendments. Let me proceed to the reading of the result of the work of my Ministry , which mentions first the text under examination and then the suggested text, with its justification. Item one -  Objectives. “To establish the basic measures, as well as those of coordination and control necessary for undertaking programs of development in the field of nuclear energy: to describe the participation of public organs, as well as private entities, in the fulfillment of those measures, all with a view to the utilization of this form of energy and the resulting basic technical and scientific knowledge for the benefit of national development and security,” our amendment reads: ”To promote, in the long and short term, with high priority level, the unrestricted application of nuclear energy for all peaceful purposes, as an accelerator of the economic, scientific and technological of the country.”  Justification: “The formulation of the proposed guidelines, in item one, Objectives, is above all a synthetic listing of the ways and means to reach the objectives of the national nuclear energy policy. A listing in the preamble seems inadequate, since the project contains in detail the description of the desired measures and partial ends. The proposed text defines the general objective, introduces the notion of priority and reserves the right to the unrestricted use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes.” This is the first amendment. The second is to item 2.1.2: “To intensify research, mining, treatment, industrialization, and stockpiling of nuclear minerals and materials, as well as to control  their commercialization.” Justification: “In what regards commercialization, the emphasis on control seems necessary for the formation of reserves of security.” Item 2.1.3: “To expand and equip national centers of research and learning devoted to the development of nuclear science and technology.”  Our amendment reads: “To expand and equip regional centers of research  and learning devoted to the development of nuclear science and technology as well as to set the bases for the establishment of a National Integrated Center.”  Justification: “There is a need to save resources and avoid duplication of efforts through the perfect coordination of the research that is carried out to-day in scattered national centers. This coordination, however, would be even more perfect with the establishment of a National Center, totally integrated, like those France possesses in Saclay, or Germany, in Julich. A National Center where scientific research and learning were integrated could also benefit all neighboring countries in the continent and would permit collaboration with more advanced countries to be utilized more efficiently.” (He interrupts the reading). Mr. President I have here, and later I shall convey to the General Secretariat of the National Security Council, documentation on these two Centers, the German and the French ones. Such integrated Centers would save much effort and would make scientists to work more harmoniously, exchanging ideas, etc. We have at present three centers: Guanabara, São Paulo and Belo Horizonte. which are the equipped traditional centers, but we should aim at integration, at an appropriate location, that in Brazil should be the Federal Capital. Item 2.1.5 (reads) “To study the installation of new research and power reactors, necessary to the undertaking of the programs to be established.”  Our amendment reads: “To promote the installation of new research reactors, necessary for the undertaking of the programs to be established.”  Justification. “For the time being, there are no power reactors in the country. Having in mind the provisions of  items 2.1.2, 2.1.3,  and 2.1.4, it is believed that it would be necessary and feasible, in the short term, to expand effectively (and not only to study, the national manufacture of research reactors.” Item 2.1.6: ”To study the opportunity, dimension and place of installation of a power reactor, with a view to the production of electric power.” Our amendment reads: “To promote the installation of a power reactor for the production of electric power.” Justification: “It is of public knowledge that the Commission made up by the National Security Council, the Ministry of Mines and Energy and the Nuclear Energy Commission, tasked by the President of the Republic to study the opportunity of installation of a power reactor, concluded in favor of the convenience of a 500 megawatt reactor for the Center-South region of the country.” “In this connection, more that a study of opportunity, dimensionorlocation, the question is effectively, on of installationof the reactor.” Item 1.2.8: “To establish a system of safeguards that protects national nuclear development.” (commenting) – There seems to be an amendment from the Navy in this regard, I only made a comment. (reads) - A new wording is needed to clarify the meaning of the expression “safeguard system” that protects national nuclear development.” Are we talking of technical measures of protection against the personal and material hazards inherent to the use of nuclear energy, or of a provision related to the international system of safeguards, so that its application does not affect “the national nuclear development”? In the latter case, it could not be the “establishment of a a Brazilian own system, but rather the definition of a policy regarding the existing international safeguards systems, accepted by Brazil.”  (Commenting). This is a question that merits study. On long term measures, item 2.2.4 (reading), “To expand  the utilization of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes, in al sectors of national activity,” We suggest to add, after the word “national,” the following: “Envisaging also domestic manufacture, eventual and future, of peaceful nuclear artifacts to be employed in geographic engineering works, in mining and other activities genuinely for economic development.” Justification: ‘It is imperative that the document includes, among longer term objectives, one of the forms of application of nuclear energy that the Brazilian Government strives to preserve in international negotiations and to which it attaches special importance. The right to unrestricted research  for peaceful purposes is a basic point of the nuclear policy defended by the Costa e Silva Administration.”

The President of the Republic: I believe this amendment is too detailed, because when it is said “to expand, for peaceful purposes, in all sectors of national activity,”  everything is included. I thing the guidelines should not deal with these detals, that would be a task to be taken up by the agency carrying out the guideline. Otherwise, the document would not follow the norm of a guideline.

Minister of External Relations: It seems to be a little detailed, however, my amendment, intending to expand, seems restrictive.

The President of the Republic: To expand the use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes… encompasses everything.

The Minister of External Relations: Mr. President, our addition, envisaging also manufacture on our own was proposed because it is the intention of the nuclear countries not to permit such manufacture by our own means in our country, but rather in the form of loans. They intend to rent nuclear explosives and not allow us to manufacture them. It is only a suggestion.

The President of the Republic: This amendment will bring too much detail to the Guidelines that are already very detailed, but it is a good idea and can be used when we regulate the agency tasked with the execution. Perhaps we may need a loan, before we can manufacture it. I do not want to say that we will not promote the opportunity of our own manufacture.     

The Minister of External Relations: We added a chronogram of execution, item 2.3 (reads); “To establish a chronogram of execution of the activities in medium and longer term proposed in these guidelines.” This is because here five years are mentioned, and this is not certain. This provision should come up at the end, establishing projects and facilities in the long and short term. In the policy of achievement, item 3.1: “The Brazilian Government reserves the right of total exclusiveness in what regards the direction and execution of all activities in the field of nuclear energy.” Justification: “The first paragraph of this item can be interpreted as excluding private industry from “all activities in the field of nuclear energy,” for it reserves to the Government “the exclusiveness not only of direction, but also of “execution” of said activities.  It also seems to contradict other provisions in the same document, which aim at stimulating private initiative, such as, for example, 2.1.4, 3.2.2 (three) and 3.3.4. (Commenting) – By the way, the Minister of Mines and Energy mentioned even medicine. Still on the policy of achievement, “the Ministry of External Relations shall assist, on the political-diplomatic aspects, the elaboration and signature of agreements and conventions with foreign Governments and private entities and international organizations, necessary for the carrying out of established programs, after hearing the National Security Council.”  Our amendment would be: “The Ministry of External Relations will be responsible for the negotiation, in consultation with interested organs, the elaboration and signature of agreements and conventions with foreign governments and private entities and international organizations, necessary for the carrying out of established programs, after hearing the National Security Council.” Justification: “The functions of the Ministry of External relations in the matter are not to “assist” in the political-diplomatic aspects, the elaboration and signature of agreements and conventions.” In fact, it is the very negotiation function that belongs to Ministry of External Relations, which should be conveniently assisted , whenever necessary. Such negotiations should normally be initiated by the National Nuclear Energy Commission. It is natural, However, that Itamaraty, in following the evolution of nuclear issues abroad or moved by interests stemming from the relations between Brazil with another country, may take the initiative of negotiations. Is discharging these functions, Itamaraty will obviously act in agreement with the National Nuclear Energy Policy set by the Government and in consultation with interested agencies at the appropriate moments. There is no reason to establish compulsory prior consultation, in all cases, to the National Security Council.  The great majority of bilateral agreements are very similar. They are little more that statements of intention, and would not warrant examination by the National Security Council.  In cases where, by the peculiarities of the agreement, formal consultation were convenient, Itamaraty would have every interest in doing so.  Besides, the President of the Republic, in any case, can ask for the opinion of the organ that he deems convenient, before authorizing the conclusion of the agreement.” As for functions, in item 3.2.1 (reads) – “The Ministry of Mines and Energy is responsible for the elaboration of proposals to modify the legislation.” Our proposal reads: “To propose to the National Security Council, after consultation with interested Ministries, modifications to the legislation in force, in order to adjust it to the norms of these Guidelines.” Justification: “The legislation in force, as well as the present guidelines on nuclear energy, deals with the functions of other Ministries. In this connection, the proposals of changes to the legislation, in order to adjust it to the present Guidelines, should be the matter of previous consultation with the other interested Ministries.

The President of the Republic: Your proposal, when it says “in consultation with interested organs,” also includes the National Security Council?

The Minister of External Relations: (interrupting the reading) –When the President of the Republic deems convenient, sometimes just the General Secretariat of the National Security Council may be heard.

The President of the Republic:  When hearing the National Security Council is mentioned, one can understand through the General Secretariat, which should be heard. What cannot happen is to exempt the Ministry of External Relations from hearing the Council, because it may sometimes take initiatives that are not convenient to the national policy as a whole.

The Minister of External Relations: These agreements are treaties of intention.

The President of the Republic:.Treaties of intentions but after hearing the security organs, obviously. The Ministry cannot take any action without hearing the President of the Republic.

The Minister of External Relations: Be it a mere mission of assistance, when, truly, this is a mission specific of the Ministry.

The President of the Republic: It is of assistance because, if there is an organ of execution, coordination, etc, in the internal field, when one goes to the international arena, no one is more apt to follow the issue that the Ministry of External Relations.  To assist on the political and diplomatic aspect, because the Ministry of External Relations, obviously, cannot be the executor. The document may even be prepared in another organ or Ministry and to be given to the Ministry of External Relations for assistance on the political and diplomatic aspect.

The Minister of the Army:  Mr. President, while I think that our Ministers, themselves or their assistants, know about nuclear energy, the organizations that should know about it by reasons of office are in truth those that interpret national interests.

The President of the Republic: For this reason, to hear the National Security Council is necessary, this hearing does not always means a plenary meeting. The President of the Republic may hear the Council  by individual consultation to its members, through a communication drafted by the General Secretariat, which is the permanent organ that works in the name of the National Security Council, and it is presided over by the President of the Republic. So, the President of the Republic may also hear the Council through the Secretary-General, tasking him with the carrying out of studies. If there is a need for debate, as is the case to-day, then he may convene a plenary meeting.

The Minister of External Relations: We intend to examine this item separately from others that deal with the functions of the National Energy Commission. What we want is to negotiate abroad, something we believe falls under the purview of the Ministry of External Relations.

The President of the Republic: No one, except the Ministry of External Relations, can take up the role of assistance in the political and diplomatic aspect. It can negotiate in consultation with the interested organs, but it cannot take the initiative. That is, the Ministry is tasked with the negotiating activity.

The Minister of External Relations: Mr. President, I will mention two examples: recently, in Asunción and Washington, I had direct conversations with the Ministers of Argentina and Chile…

The President of the Republic: (interrupting and speaking at the same time) – You did not negotiate. You should bring what you heard to be submitted to the organs tasked with this study, and then say…

The Minister of External Relations: This is the doubt, Mr. President, because I negotiated. Now we will bring here what was negotiated for examination by the technical organs.

The President of the Republic: In practice, you did not negotiate, you exchanged ideas, you heard. To negotiate entails to take a position, a definite position. For instance, we are going to negotiate the relations of the Merchant Navy, and then the proper organ will negotiate and the Ministry of External Relations assists, because it is a matter of international scope.

The Minister of External Relations: I would request from you a more detailed examination of the matter.

The President of the Republic: Mr. Minister, your amendments are very good, the justifications are perfect. We will examine them in detail. We just do not want duplication.

The Minister of External Relations: Item 3.2.2 (reads) – “To attract private capitals to the sectors of peaceful uses of nuclear energy.” Our amendment proposes: “To attract national private capitals to the sectors of peaceful uses of nuclear energy.” Justification: “In a matter that affects national security, the exploitation of nuclear energy, in all its forms, should be made by national capitals.”

The President of the Republic:. Then we should not build Ilha Solteira, which is being financed by private foreign capitals, despite being from banks. Sometimes we must  resort to private foreign capitals for lack of national capitals. We cannot stop important works for this reason.

The Minister of Mines and Energy: May I make an observation?  If Brazil wanted now to build a power reactor, with a view to producing electric energy, our industry would not be in a position to do it. Then we would have to seek abroad what would be more convenient, making every analysis. That would be foreign financing.

The President of the Republic; The capital can be foreign.

The Minister of Planning and General Coordination: Mr. President, just a point of order. I understand we are making only a reading of the amendments and that observations will be made afterwards.  Some Ministers are abstaining from making statements.

The President of the Republic: Precisely. Each one should keep his observations to make them afterwards.

The Minister of Planning and General Coordination: There were previous amendments that merited observations.

The President of the Republic: To listen attentively, to take note of the observations for presentation at the opportune moment. I interfere because I have the floor, I give the floor.

The Minister of External Relations: Item 3.2.2 (reads) “To authorize the export of minerals, ores or concentrations  containing coexisting nuclear elements, as long as it is necessary to the establishment of the nuclear infrastructure of the country and that it does not affect national needs, present or future.” The wording could be more explicit, to the effect that the export of minerals would eventually happen with a view to obtaining from abroad technical assistance and/or equipment for the infrastructure of the nuclear energy in the country. In any case, previous consultation to the National Security Council would be advisable.” (commentary) – We understand, Mr. President, that export can only be admitted when it yields something to improve our infrastructure.  I suggest, therefore, that the matter be better clarified. We did not propose wording, we just suggest that what is intended be made very clear, that we will exchange surpluses for infrastructure equipment, which in any case would be done by previous consultation to the National Security Council. With regard to item 3.3, - Measures of internal scope, we have 3.3.2 – (reads) – “To move and interest the Brazilian industrial establishment in the manufacture of material and equipment, as well as in the participation in specific projects, necessary to nuclear technology.” “The reference to the “Brazilian industrial establishment” seems very appropriate, because it should be stimulated for the manufacture of materials and equipment needed for the carrying out of the nuclear policy drawn by the present guidelines. See other observations on the need to interest national private initiative in the development of nuclear energy.”

The President of the Republic: The wording is fine, we are receiving foreign capital in the form of loans. We will not accept, under any circumstances, a mixed national and foreign enterprise, but we are accepting in several states foreign capital for assistance, as loans.

The Minister of Finance: In fact, in any form, it is very indefinite, what is “the Brazilian industrial establishment”? Ford Motor Company is  a “Brazilian industrial establishment”?

The President of the Republic; If it was nationalized, it is.

The Minister of External Relations: But item 3.3..4 clarifies -  (reads) – “To interest physical and juridical entities in these activities.” We make the same observation already made on item 3.3.2”: “one should distinguish between national and foreign physical and juridical entities, because of the interest to national security.”

The President of the Republic: We could study what is done in other countries. I have the impression that even the Americans utilize the Russians. There are spies who are convicted outside their countries. In the interest of science, in the area of research, the problem of capitals does not exist.

The Minister of Transportation: It is no use to bring technicians from backward countries. We need the cooperation of countries with very advanced technical competence, who can bring experience, and there is no harm in them knowing what we are doing.

The Minister of External relations: If we allow foreign firms to build reactors, they become owners of the control that they will impose. Mr. President, the Minister from Belgium approached me to talk about this issue. Belgium’s difficulty is that it does not wish to utilize nuclear energy, but it needs some applications, and according to the Treaty,  Belgium will be overseen by an international organization.Their concern is the possibility of theft of industrial secrets because of this overseeing inspection, with serious harm to the Belgian industry in the competition with other industries. They are at present very concerned because having France next door as a nuclear power, and them being a small country dependent on the United States, they made many defense agreements with that country  and now the United States entered into an agreement with Russia and they say: “we are defenseless.” The problem is really serious and must be studied. I admit I am a newcomer to this issue and do not intend to bring any definitive contribution. It is, in my view, a new field that is coming up and must concern all Brazilians, because it means the future.

The President of the Republic: The objection from the Finance Minister is correct. We need to define the Brazilian industrial establishment.

The Minister of External Relations: We suggested “National physical and juridical entities.”

The Minister of Finance: A national physical and juridical entity is one that is constituted in Brazil, in which foreign shareholders can participate.

The Minister of Mines and Energy: If the restriction to physical persons who do not necessarily have to be nationals is excessive, it seems that the restriction would be convenient for juridical entities, which should be national.

The Minister of Finance: After all, what is the definition of a national juridical entity?

The Minister of Mines and Energy: It is one that is constituted in Brazil. It can even be from abroad and be typically Brazilian.

The Minister of Industry and Commerce: National industry is one that has its legal seat in Brazil and according to the law, enjoys certain advantages when the capital reaches a certain level of Brazilian character. For instance, Ford, installed in São Paulo, is a department of the American Ford, Ford Motor S.A., that is, Ford Motor South America, and not an anonymous society. This is a circumvention of the law that I am now trying to correct at the Ministry. I will not allow this circumvention to be repeated. In its registry, Ford would have to say “Ford Motor South America.” The definition, therefore, of a national enterprise is one that has its headquarters and legal seat in Brazil, which, on the other hand, will entail certain advantages, according to the legislation in force, if it has a majority of national capital (murmurs).

The Minister of External Relations: It will hardly be in a position to function in this situation.

The Minister of Labor and Social Security: I believe that Law no. 2004, which regulates Petrobrás, has not been changed. Under this aspect, there would be  unsurmountable barriers for non-Brazilian citizens to be shareholders of Petrobrás. There has already been a reasonable test since the enactment of the law. I believe the National Security Council can evaluate whether the objection is convenient or not.

The Minister of External Relations: With regard to item 3.4 - (reads) – Measures in the external sphere – In order to achieve the objectives, federal organs responsible for the National Nuclear Energy Policy, within their purview, shall adopt the following measures for action in the external sphere, after hearing the National Security Council. Observation – “the negotiation and signature of agreements and treaties belongs exclusively, by Constitutional mandate, to the Ministry of External Relations.” The structure of Chapter 3.4 and of item 3.4.1 seems to extend this task to other organs of the federal administration. For the negotiation and signature of agreements, Itamaraty seeks assistance from the organs directly interested. Item 3.4.1: “To sign agreements and treaties with nuclear developed countries with a view to  improving national and technical and scientific equipment.” Our amendment proposes: “To replace the expression “with nuclear developed countries” by the word “international.” Justification: “Besides  agreements with more developed countries, it may be advisable to conclude agreements with: 1) countries with a development comparable to that of Brazil, with which there is special political interest to establish cooperation in the nuclear field, as is the case of Argentina, and 2) countries less developed than Brazil, such as Paraguay and Bolivia, which we always wished to benefit and attract, because of our regional position. The present wording would prevent, for instance, the eventual organization of a Latin American Atomic Community. Item 3.4.2: “Treaties, agreements and conventions to be signed abroad shall respect the guidelines and the spirit of the National Nuclear Energy Policy.” Our amendment proposes to add: “… and should in nothing curtail the right of Brazil to the full utilization of nuclear energy, in all its forms, for peaceful purposes, including in what regards nuclear explosives.”

The President of the Republic: This is implicit. This declaration is a little redundant and aggressive, without necessity.

The Minister of External Relations: It is for our use.

The President of the Republic: It is a policy definition that is already a given and nothing can curtail the right of our country.

The Minister of External Relations: You know what is happening in Geneva. They are trying to curtail our right, but we will not permit it. In these international talks I have felt great pressure from the big powers.

The President of the Republic: The guidelines we are drafting will deal with all fields belonging to nuclear energy.

The Minister of External Relations: In the last page, in what regards item 4.5.8: “To study the installation of a power reactor with a view to the production of electric energy.” Our amendment proposes to substitute “To promote” for “To study.”

The President of the Republic: Promotion is preceded by study, obviously. In this case, to study is to promote.

‘The Minister of External Relations: With regard to this issue, Mr. President, the Commission appointed by Your Excellency has already finished its work and presented its conclusion, so it is no longer the case for a study. To conclude, Mr. President, I wish to convey some information and news. Governor Nelson Rockefeller, of the state of New York, showed me part of a study that is under way for the installation of a submarine plant for the production of 18 million kilowatts, which will double the capacity of the state of New York. According to this study, Germany intents to build a 300 thousand kw plant, which means a revolution in the conventional system. I shall transmit these data to the Minister of Mines and Energy for perusal by that Ministry and other interested parties. I believe that the world is on the threshold of a great revolution and we should be prepared for it. We cannot miss it.

The President of the Republic: Everything is done according to the economic and financial possibilities. In a sensible policy, we must finish what has been started in hydro electric power. The construction of that monument, Ilha Solteira, cannot be interrupted. Seneca, if I am not mistaken, said that to start new work without finishing what have been started is for fools. We have to finish ongoing jobs. We do not have the capability to do much, and we do not have the intention to be pioneers in anything, before finishing what other pioneers started. I believe that a Government that finishes everything that has been started in our country will be already a great prize. I even think there will be no time for this Government to conclude this task. We have a golden example in the Main Trunk Line South, a work of fundamental interest for Brazil, which has been crawling for twenty years for lack of resources,

The Minister of External Relations: Since 1933.

The President of the Republic: There is another project that became famous. In 1909, construction of the famous Gargalheiras Dam was started, in Rio Grande do Norte. The British began by building beautiful houses, a wonderful supply depot, but the dam was never built. When it was entrusted to the industriousnessof Minister Afonso, who was  Group Commander and gave the job to then Major Pinho, who is to-day the Director of the National Department of Works Against Drought, the dam was built in three years and was named after Marshall Dutra. Since 1909 that project was a drain in financial resources, and once it was finished it started benefitting the arid and barren area of Siridó, which is now productive and very prosperous. I thank the precious collaboration of the Minister of External Relations. According to the established order, I now give the floor to the Minister of Education and Culture.

The Minister of Education and Culture: Mr. President, I have two  kinds of observations to make. I will deal first with the wording shortcomings of the document and then of what is under the purview of the Ministry of Education and Culture in the present Guidelines.

The President of the Republic; The issue is in good hands.

The Minister of Education and Culture: It is well known that in matters of competence everything should be well clarified in order to avoid conflicts of functions and duplications. It seems that the wording does not address perfectly this requirement regarding the execution of a nuclear policy. For instance, the word achievement (consecução) is not being used in its exact sense. Achievementis the act of achieving, and one does not achieve a policy; one promotes a policy, one carries out a policy. In only a few cases in this study that word is appropriately employed. This is only a general observation. If we look at the contents of page 3 in the spelling out of the achievement policy, with the correction made to the word consecução, we see that the Security Council and the Ministry of Mines and Energy have identical commitments. The National Security Council is “responsible for overseeing, guiding and coordinating the policy of achievement about the nuclear policy,”  and the Ministry of Mines and Energy is “tasked with achieving the National Nuclear Energy Policy “. It is the same thing, in different words. I believe, Mr. President, that we must set a scheme of action for the organs, with regard to the nuclear policy. It would be for the President of the Republic, in the first place, to draw the general guidelines, to establish the philosophy to be followed in this matter. It is under the purview of the President to define the geral guidelines. Second, the National Security Council should establish the general norms, the practical norms for action, general norms for the oversight, guidance and control of the nuclear policy. Finally, the Ministry of Mines and Energy, chiefly or on a priority basis, would be responsible for carrying out of the Government policy and the general norms set by the National Security Council. Itamaraty would then deal with the diplomatic policy, the elaboration of conventions. At this point, the relations between the Ministries should be addressed in order to avoid future difficulties, which we can notice even now. Minister Magalhães Pinto defended the position of Itamaraty about negotiating and not only assist in matters relating to the nuclear policy. If we add at the end of page 3, after item 3.1, the following paragraph: “In accordance with the general guidance decided by the President of the Republic and the norms set by the National Security Council, the Ministries are responsible for…” we would have solved the problem.

The President of the Republic: The National Security Council does not only set general norms; it oversees, guides and coordinates. It is a permanent action.

The Minister of Education and Culture: But always through general norms. It sets the guidelines.

The President of the Republic: I agree with replacing achievement with carrying outin what regards the Ministry of Mines and Energy. As for the National Security Council, the expression “coordinating the policy of execution about nuclear policy” is indeed not very clear, but the Council does not only set general norms; it supervises, it guides, it coordinates the action by the Ministries. I do not see a duplication of functions between the National Security Council and the Ministry of Mines and Energy.

The Minister of Mines and Energy: The term I used was “carrying out.”

The Minister of Education and Culture: In my understanding, Mr. President, The Ministry of Mines and Energy should be responsible for the carrying out and the Ministry of External Relations for the diplomatic policy, always obeying the general guidance drawn by the President of the Republic and the norms set by the Council. In this manner, the words “assist” or “negotiate” could be kept.           

The President of the Republic: In Paraguay there was not really a commitment, but a diplomatic action,  preliminary to an understanding. Do you have a proposal to make? That is a drafting proposal?

The Minister of Education and Culture: No, Mr. President. I am making some quick observations deriving from the debate we had, but I will convey them to you later, with the suggestion of the appointment of a drafting committee.

The President of the Republic:  You are suggesting a Drafting Committee. We can appoint one, also following your indication. This is interesting.

The Minister of Education and Culture: The other observation I should like to make, Mr. President, is about the concern about enlarging the national technical and scientific cadres and preparing the human resources needed for the work of the Government in this sector. You certainly know, and here I must bring out, that all this depends on financial resources, and since it is a specific task of the Ministry I have the honor to head, I wish to point out that for the next budget year the allotment for the Campaign of Improvement of Higher Education Personnel and for the National Research Council have not been increased, they are even lower than those for the current budget year. So, when the Government announces emphatically a stronger thrust to the nuclear policy, and requires better preparation of the cadres and the formation of personnel for nuclear programs of medium and higher levels, it is necessary to pay attention to the convenience of increasing the resources in order to achieve the desired development. In any case, this is only an observation to be made, because in the conditions for execution, the document mentions the global financial resources needed  and which will be alloted. I suppose that an Inter-ministerial Commission will be established on a joint initiative by the Ministries of Planning and of Finance, to provide resources that will make possible the development of this program.

The Minister of the Army: Do you permit an aside? In the Army, we are used to working without money, and when a large effort is required we utilize the resources we can muster and we work without extra money. This, extended to the general panorama, may guide the efforts that the Ministry of Education and Culture shall direct, according to Government policy, to capitalize governmental organs that may be useful, within existing resources, to help in this effort. It is obvious that this requires a lot of money, but it can be achieved without extraordinary resources,  gaining in substance, and the Army is ready to join in this effort with the resources it has, with its technical cadres, with its schools. The Army has a school with a nuclear energy course. We have graduated people. There is another nucleus, ITA, which has been forming high level men, and while the Ministry of Aeronautics has not yet spoken, I believe it is ready to cooperate.

The Minister of Education and Culture: These were the observations I wished to make.

The President of the Republic: Your observations were useful. They have been recorded and will be used  in the drafting. The Minister of Industry and Commerce has the floor.

The Minister of Industry and Commerce: Mr. President, members of the Council. I interpreted this ultra-secret document by myself. I did not convey it to any organ, neither even to my own Ministry, nor to my adviser. I take it as a document that will give rise to two other documents, one of a general character, on the policy of Brazil which may even be published and will be used for external and internal policy purposes, and another, secret, which will constitute the policy of the Government to be distributed to the organs responsible for the carrying out of this policy. In the latter, I would take out the expression “peaceful purposes,” it would be the same as saying that the Piquete factory is for peaceful purposes, because what is produces, nitroglycerin, for instance, is a medicine; picric acid, toluol, is a product for the manufacture of solvents; as for ammonium, there are also ammonium explosives. “Peaceful purposes” reminds me of an observation I heard once from the Ministry of External Relations of Yugoslavia, before the bolshevization, in Geneva, where the problem of the use of gases was being discussed. A document was then being elaborated to prohibit the use of gases, and the Minister of External Relations of Yugoslavia said the following: “If a country is attacked, and for its defense it needs to use gases, no document will prevent it from doing it.” So, to say that some day Brazil will not make arms with nuclear energy is an illusion. It will not be for our days, we may not wish it, but it may become an imperative of national security. As for my Ministry, specifically, I see in the first place the use of isotopes in industry in a general manner, and second the development of nuclear metallurgy. It is a branch of metallurgy that also is of interest to aeronautics, because it permits the manufacture of metals and their alloys used in the production of reactors, highly refractory metals used for airplane turbines, for instance, and so on and so forth. With regard to these ideas, I ask, are the enterprises for the achievement of these objectives national enterprises in the sense I mentioned, companies with headquarters and seat in Brasil. They are generally societies that use foreign technology with foreign capital, such as Brown Boveri, General Electric  and other companies of this kind. If we want or if we have any industrial secret, due to the Brazilian imagination or the development of our know how,  this secret must remain within our arsenals. We have arsenals that are State companies, we have a remarkable arsenal in the Navy, for instance, where there is machinery of large dimensions; we have Government enterprises; we have, at São José dos Campos, an impressive organization for the high level of science and techniques that its members already have. So we have elements to keep industrial secrets, if they exist, and this is normal. In the formation of men to be devoted to nuclear industry, or those who already are devoted to it, we have a remarkable Center, in São Paulo, which I know very well. I have lived there. We have the Brazilian Center for Physical Research, in Rio de Janeiro, of which for six years I was the President, and recently sent a representative to Sacclay and Geneva. This scientist is now the second person in the life of Geneva and it would be good to try to bring him back to our country, but for this we need to give him working conditions compatible with his level. This is the difficulty. The function of the Brazilian Center for Physical Research, which is a private organ, is to help in the formation of such people. The idea of the establishment of this Center is due to João Alberto, immediately seconded by myself, and it was organized with forty Brazilians interested in developing human knowledge in this field, our objective was to obtain money for the formation and maintenance of technicians in Brazil. We achieved this for a long time, until because of Governments that rose in Brazil at a certain time, the Center for Physical  Research fell into the hands of leftist elements and I had to leave its Presidency. At that time the Center started to deteriorate, but it is already recovering. The Ministry of Education  has protected it and I hope that Minister Tarso Dutra, my dear colleague, will pay attention to this Center, something very important. I do not need to mention the Centers in Belo Horizonte or São Paulo, which did not experience the vicissitudes of the Brazilian Center for Physical Research.  About my own Ministry, what is important now is to add a metalwork engineer to the Executive Group of the Metallurgic Industry, someone specialized in nuclear metallurgy. If there is no such man available, we have to form him. We know that men of this level exist in São Paulo. Brazil has them. We have discussed this issue in congresses. I can say that at the Vitória Congress, of the Brazilian Association of…..more than ninety original papers by Brazilians were presented. This means that there is already room for the development of technology in Brazil and a large number of technicians. It is false to say, as was the case during some time, that there is no technology in Brazil. This is a mistake. We absorbed much from abroad. I was myself formed abroad and brought to Brazil useful knowledge, not only for practical application but also for teaching in the schools where I was professor. The other observations I could make have already been made by the Minister of External Relations and other members who preceded me. It is my duty no to insist. As for the drafting, to make the document clearer, it is a problem to be resolved in a simple way. I have thus stated my point of view as Minister of Industry and Commerce.

The President of the Republic: I thank you for your clarifications, which will certainly be very useful for the final drafting of the document. As for the contents of the Guidelines, the Minister of Industry and Commerce agrees in practice with the observations already made by other Ministers. I would like to hear now the opinion of the Minister of Health about the item related to his Ministry, any observation regarding the widening or restriction to his area of work

The Minister of Health: Nuclear activities are indeed fundamentally important for medicine. First, one can think and hope that studies for its utilization, if well oriented, may extend human life, and more than that, greater productivity, something that proves its importance in the field of medicine. However, the use of nuclear energy implies the problem of contamination. I would remind the members of the Council of the convenience of foreseeing the necessary measures to control this problem, by the way, the Council of the World Health Organization suggested the adoption of preventive measures for the control of contamination from radioactive emanations, in fact natural contamination, from the atmosphere, the Sun, the Cosmos. The use of nuclear energy also entails other kinds of contamination. We know that there is contamination by air, by breath, by digestion, by the ingestion of radioactive substances and others, and directly through the skin. Then it is indispensable that we take all precautions to defend the population from that contamination, from the standpoint of public health. I recall these measures for an appropriate moment. We know that the wider application of nuclear energy for food preservation is being discussed, something very important, and it is possible that cold may be replaced by the use of radiation to conserve food. Besides, food in natura, bearer of diseases, such as trichinosis, may be sterilized. To conclude, about the drafting and what was debated, I wish to confine myself to the realm of health. Once again I appeal for the defense of the population in the case of radiation.

The President of the Republic: The Minister of Agriculture has the floor.

The Minister of Agriculture: Mr. President, members of the Security Council, indeed the question of drafting is linked to the character one wishes to give to this document, whether generic or detailed. If it is to be generic…

The President of the Republic: It is a guideline, that is always generic.

The Minister of Agriculture: In some points the document addresses minutiae. If the wish is to have a more generic document, I think that the suggestion of wording change regarding the Ministry of Agriculture to “The Ministry of Agriculture, with a view to study and research related to the application of nuclear energy to agrarian and cattle-raisingactivities,” is very good.  But if the document will address details, the proposal from the Navy would be better; by the way, my suggestion coincides with that of the Navy: “The Ministry of Agriculture, with a view to the study and research related to the application of nuclear energy in the field of conservation ad preservation of food, in the fight against plagues, harmful insects and agrarian and cattle-raisingactivities,” I would say “other agrarian and cattle-raising activities.” Indeed, the preservation and conservation of food is very important. Preservation of food for as long as five years has been achieved, with the application of nuclear energy irradiation. So here are two options; if the document is to be generic, the first suggestion is good; if it is to be detailed, the Navy suggestion is the best.

The President of the Republic: The Minister of Planning and General Coordination has the floor. To him is entrusted the placing of nuclear programs at the priority level, the elaboration of the program budget of the Union and the attraction of foreign financing.

The Minister of Planning and General Coordination: The observations I could make to this document were of language and system, and were very aptly brought forth by the Minister of Education. It seems to me that he properly highlights the fact the areas of competence are not well clarified. Second, the expression “achievement” was being used with different meanings

The President of the Republic: I already made a decision in relation to the observations by the Minister of Education and Culture.   

The Minister of Planning and General Coordination: I will return shortly to the question of competence. The question of language can be addressed by a committee. It is not worthwhile to waste time with language problems in a meeting of this level. The most important is to define the general sense of the document and the fundamental positions that the Government is adopting. First, it is necessary that the Government position in this sector is absolutely clear. Our position is, in principle, defined in item 3.3:”The Brazilian Government reserves the right of total exclusiveness in what regards the guidance and execution of all activities in the field of nuclear energy.” The necessary observations were already partially made. As for the drafting of this item, exclusiveness already implies totality, so we can eliminate the adjective total. But this is secondary, what is important is to correct the incoherence that exists in this text regarding the rest of the document, when it mentions the carrying out of all activities in the field of nuclear energy. On the contrary, the document defends, in several points, the participation of private initiative, and indeed it would be inconceivable to imagine the development of this sector without  such participation. So, the most important, since the document itself in several points mentions the participation of private initiative, is to replace the expression for control, this is what seems most important.

The President of the Republic: Guidance and control.

The Minister of Planning and General Coordination: Guidance and control, because what the Government has to do, in this particular is first of all to define a policy, guide the sector, and second to exert control over the sector.

The President of the Republic: I believe that by withdrawing the word exclusiveness the issue will be resolved.

The Minister of Planning and General Coordination:  I think the word exclusiveness should be maintained. “The Brazilian Government reserves the right of exclusiveness in what regards the guidance and control of all activities in the field of nuclear energy.”

The President of the Republic: Then guidance and exclusiveness would be out?

The Minister of Planning and General Coordination: “The Brazilian Government reserves the right of exclusiveness in what regards the guidance and control of all activities in the field of nuclear energy.” This is what will distinguish this sector from the others, to be submitted to a policy that reflects a degree of security and a more strict control that does not exist in the remaining sectors of private initiative. This is the first suggestion. Second, it is necessary to define  clearly the areas of competence; the definition, as it is, according to the analysis by  Minister Tarso Dutra, may give rise to doubts, which is not good. Proceeding with the analysis of item 3.1, we have initially - (reads) – “The President of the Republic shall assure the general guidance of the National Nuclear Energy Policy.”  There is no doubt whatsoever. Next, we have: “The National Security Council is responsible for the supervision, guidance and coordination of the policy of achievement about nuclear energy.” I would recall that the National Security Council is an advisory organ to the President of the Republic. In my opinion, it is not tasked with the supervision, guidance and coordination of the policy under discussion. The National Security Council has a permanent organ, its Secretariat, but in itself it is an advisory organ, as defined in  law, article 40 of Decree-Law 200 – (reads) – The National Security Council advises the President of the Republic in the formulation and conduct of the national security policy.” This feature as the summit organ for the execution of policy, as appears in the document, does not agree with the text of the law. Unless we understand that the summit organ is the General Secretariat of the Council, as regulated in article 43 of the same law: “The National Security Council has a General Secretariat, as an organ for the study, planning and coordination in the field of national security.” Therefore I suggest that in the final drafting attention is given to this aspect. I shall not propose wording, which could be counterproductive, but I consider the language inadequate as it is.

The president of the Republic: As for the National Security Council, the Vice-President of the Republic suggests the reading of Article 91 of the Constitution, which gives to the Council other missions and competences, besides that of advisory organ. (reads). – “The functions of the National Security Council are: First – the study of questions related to national security, with the cooperation of the information organs and those tasked to prepare national mobilization and military operations; Second – in the areas indispensable to national security, to give prior agreement to: a) land concessions, opening of transportation ways and installation of means of communication; b) construction of bridges and international roads, as well as landing strips; c) establishment or exploitation of industries that interest national security. Third – to modify or extinguish the concessions or authorizations mentioned in the previous item. Paragraph: The law shall specify the areas indispensable to national security, regulate their utilization and assure, for the industries within such areas, the predominance of Brazilian capitals and personnel.”  All this is under the purview of the Security Council.

The Minister of Planning and General Coordination: But the functions of this executive organ of the Council must be set in the Constitution or in law, in the cases expressly submitted to the decision of the National Security Council. Anyway,  the National Security Council does not replace the President of the Republic.

The President of the Republic: It does not replace, but is an organ of the Presidency of the Republic, it is an organ of supervision, coordination and guidance. The President of the Republic gives the guidance and this organ takes care of the supervision, its task is to supervise and follow the execution.

The Minister of Planning and General Coordination: The drafting solves the problem. I am just calling attention to this aspect. As for the Ministry of Mines and Energy, indeed, by law, as long as the Ministry of Science and Technology is not created, and we do not know whether it will be or not, the execution is entrusted to that Ministry in the terms that Minister Tarso Dutra proposed, the execution of the policy approved by the President of the Republic, based on the advice of the National Security Council, which by its turn follows that policy. The position of the Ministry of External Relations, and in this I second the suggestion of Minister Tarso Dutra, who suggested to open a chapter dealing with the functions of several Ministries, starting with the Ministry of External Relations, followed by the remaining ones. This system would be incomparably superior to the one that appears in the document, where the linkage with the other Ministries is given to the National Nuclear Energy Commission.

The President of the Republic: This was already debated.

The Minister of Planning and General Coordination: So I suggest a Chapter for the functions of each Ministry in this sector, starting with the Ministry of External Relations, because of its special nature. I also believe it is important to safeguard the exclusiveness of negotiation for Itamaraty, which will reflect in them the policy drawn by the President of the Republic, assisted by the Ministry of Mines and Energy. As for the Ministry of Planning and General Coordination, I see it is mentioned several times and in my view is not correctly defined in the document. It is a matter of drafting and I believe it can be corrected in the way proposed by Minister Tarso Dutra, since the functions of my Ministry, in this question, are of high responsibility. There is also the basic question of participation of private enterprise in the sector, it is a basic theme and not one of form, and it is convenient that it is much debated and set in this meeting. It seems to me that the expansion of activities in this sector can only happen with private participation. Regarding this issue, we need to decide what we wish when we speak of national private enterprise, which, as the Minister of Industry and Commerce correctly clarified, is one that is submitted to the national legal system according to the law, and it is not national if it is a branch of an international company. So, a subsidiary of a foreign company registered in Brazil, under our laws, is deemed national. What is important is not to call the company national or foreign, but to know who has the control of the company. This is not mentioned in the document and in this connection I believe one should not be too radical, because the sector encompasses a wide variety of activities, and like almost all such wide ranging sectors, there are many activities where there should not be any concern about national control, but only the control of effectiveness, productivity, with the largest possible number of interested entities. By the way, to evaluate that range, it suffices to look at what the document itself mentions as activities in this sector. These are investigation in both its meanings, “research” in the sense of prospection, which is already an activity where control is justified under certain aspects, mining, treatment, stockpiling and commercialization. There is a variety of situations that perhaps cannot be defined in this document, but which would be worth trying to define in a subsequent document. It is more important to define the aspect of the limitations of control than certain details that are contained in this document. It would be very important to know that there is interest in keeping it in Brazilian hands indeed, and in those of national private companies, but under the control of Brazilians. Caution is necessary in every area or sub-area of this sector. I am not debating the issue, I am only warning that the treatment given to this question is not satisfactory. Apparently the document shuns foreign capitals, but capital in the form of loans is indispensableand risk capital is admissible in cases where there is no security problem. It is necessary to change the wording in this particular, to stress control where it is necessary and not mention it where it is not necessary. As for “peaceful purposes”  I think it is a basic expression, we have to define our position in this meeting. I believe, as the Minister of Industry and Commerce has said, that we should not eliminate it, but one should not qualify exploration and research with this limitation. I agree with the amendment by the Minister of the Navy in this connection, as by the way I agree practically with all those coming from that Ministry. I believe we should not eliminate the expression “for peaceful purposes,” also because the use is not defined by the instruments, the use will be a consequence of the needs of the Government, and the instruments are the same, whether for peaceful purposes or not. That limitation can give rise to an understanding that there is a limitation of the instruments of action in the sector. Another important issue, since I do not wish to take the time of the Council with drafting problems, is the one relating to point 2..2.5, when exchanges with other countries are mentioned, especially those in our continent. I do not see any reason, It seems that exchanges with other developed countries are necessary, as was proposed, I do not remember whether by the Minister of External Relations. I already said I agree in principle with the amendments by the Minister of The Navy, despite having read them very quickly. I would now like to examine, very rapidly, the amendments by the Minister of External Relations, all of them very well justified, showing careful work. I shall only comment on the ones I have doubts about. It seems to me that the suggestion for a better definition of objectives is pertinent, and the suggestion of the Minister of External Relations can be used, it is a question of drafting. The amendment proposed for the change of item 2.1.2: “To intensify research, mining, treatment, industrialization and stockpiling and “controlling” commercialization  of nuclear minerals and ores,” introducing the word “controlling” with reference to the commercialization, it seems to me that this does not improve the wording, and also gives the impression that other activities should not be submitted to control. Going further, the amendment that deals with the creation of the National Integrated Center, without disagreeing I believe it requires further study. It seems to me that the urgency and convenience of creating this Center should be examined.  Although this issue has been dealt with in other countries, it deserves more care on our part, above all we should not take any measure  which, looking for a better solution, ends up by bringing prejudice to possible solutions that exist and are underway, on the principle that the greatest obligation of the Government is to make what exists function well before thinking of creating new things. I am not against the idea. In principle I think it is correct, I only think we should not bring it into the document before a deeper examination. I think all other suggestions are good, I agree with them, several of them greatly  improve the document. Coming to item 3.3 – Policy of execution, responsibilities, the amendment regarding negotiation, I believe the exclusiveness of negotiation should be assured, thus conveying the guidance of the President. As for the amendment from the Minister of Mines and Energy, item 3.2.1, “to propose to the National Security Council…” I would give it the following wording: “To propose to the President of the Republic that the Council be heard…” . Regarding the amendment to item 3.2.2, that mentions “attracting national private capitals for the sectors of peaceful uses of nuclear energy,” I am against it for the reasons already exposed, not for being less nationalistic that the Minister of Mines and Energy, but because I believe this is not the best way to convey that intention. As for the amendment proposed for item 3.3.4: “To interest physical and juridical entities in these activities,”  which restricts only for nationals the participation in the activities mentioned in item 3.3.3, where a large range of activities is included, I believe it should not be accepted for the reasons already expounded. I do not wish to take your time much longer, because the rest is only a matter of detail.

The President of the Republic: Your observations are interesting We, military, have many ways of issuing commands. First, we make a guideline that will serve as the basis for several commands, according to the rank. For this reason the guideline should have a general character, be generic. The Minister of Coordination proposed to include many details in the document, and this will be for another rank, in the documents stemming from these Guidelines. I accept all suggestions and in the end I will take a decision. I have in my hands the proposal of the Minister of the Navy, which I read quickly. The suggestions are now going to be presented verbally. I am following, in giving the floor, the order set in “establish links with… ,” page 5 of the document. As for the Minister of Finance, obviously his function are a consequence, the securing of budgetary allocations and financial resources necessary for the execution of the approved programs, etc. The programs are a consequence of the Guidelines, so his comments now are not necessary. Let us listen to the Minister of the Navy, who will clarify his much commented and already well accepted proposal.

The Minister of the Navy: Mr. Predience, the importance of nuclear energy for the Navy is obvious, it is indispensable. Today there are vessels propelled by nuclear energy. A submarine, for instance, when propelled by electric energy, develops under water a speed of four or five miles per hour, but with nuclear energy it goes beyond thirty miles, maneuvers like an airplane and changes its inclination by pressing a single button, and therefore the crews must be trained. The Navy has been dealing with the question of nuclear energy because it considers that indispensable. We already have engineers specialized in nuclear energy and we also have a research center that deals with the subject.  The Guidelines received were studied  by the Navy Chiefs of Staff as we military are used to do, under the direction of the Head of the Navy  Staff, which is also a member of this Council. Admiral Moreira Maia, under my supervision. A short document with suggestions was then drafted, approved by me. We should not waste time with grammatical questions contained in our suggestion about research and prospection.

The President of the Republic: Certainly, in the elaboration of the final document these observations will be taken into account.

The Minister of the Navy: The important parts of the document, already distributed to everyone, were discussed by the colleagues that assisted me. I believe we can do without its reading, if you believe so, Mr. President.

The President of the Republic: Very good. I think everything is very reasonable. Everything is well explained and all the Ministers have had time to read the document.

The  Minister of the Navy: I do not have anything else to add, besides this document.   

Transcript of the document/proposal by the Navy: - Page 1. Item 2.1: to substitute the item with the following: “To expand the national technical  and scientific cadres, at all levels, with a view to the timely and progressive response to the needs of nuclear development, making every effort toward total use of Brazilian scientists present to-day in Brazil and abroad.” Justification: “The attraction of salaries and appropriate work conditions existing in developed countries, incomparably superior to ours, will always be a hindrance to the achievement of the Policy that we intend to establish. If vigorous and specific measures to neutralize such a de facto situation are not taken, the exodus of the best scientists from the Nation will continue, as happens nowadays.” Page 1, 8 and 12, items 1.2, 3.3 and 4.5.3, to substitute the word research by the word prospection. Justification: “The word research has a different connotation from that which the text intends to ascribe to it. The word prospection is more correct.” Page 1, 3, 7 and 11, items 2.1.3, 3.1.1 (second part), 3.2.2, 4.4 and page 7, ninth line, to substitute the word center by the word organ.  Justification: “Not all Brazilian organizations devoted to nuclear activities are centers. It seems that the denomination organ, more generally, will encompass all the organizations involved.” Page 2, item 2.1.6, to substitute the following item: “To stimulate the utilization of nuclear energy in the several sectors of national development and security.” Justification: “There is no need for any limitation to the utilization of nuclear energy to appear in text of the National Nuclear Policy, and neither is this desirable. The National Policy should satisfy the national interests. The restriction “for peaceful purposes” is fine for external policy.” Page 2, item 2.1.8, to substitute the item with the following: “To establish a system of safeguards that protects national nuclear development and the mineral reserves necessary to it.”  Justification: “Considering the large territorial extension of Brazil and the lack of knowledge about the total size of our reserves, it is imperative to protect such reserves by means of more specific legislation, more precise vigilance and criminal responsibility according to the National Security Law.” Page 2, item 2.2.2, to replace the item by the following: “To stimulate and enlarge the industrial infrastructure with a view to its more intense participation in the programs of construction of reactors and the manufacture of the necessary equipment and instruments.” Justification: “The Nation already possesses industrial infrastructure. There is a need to stimulate that industry in order for it to participate in the Nuclear Program, not only for the manufacture of reactors, but also counters, accelerators, and accompanying equipment and instruments. There is no sense in having a nuclear industrial infrastructure unless what one has in mind is defined.” Page 2, item 2.2.4, to replace the item by the following: “To expand the utilization of nuclear energy in all sectors of national activity.” Justification: “The same as for item 2.1.7 above.” Page 2, item 2.2.5, to replace the item by the following: “To speed up technical-scientific exchanges  with other countries in the field of nuclear energy, especially with more developed countries.” Justification: “We already have techno-scientific exchange with several countries. We need this exchange to be more dynamic. Obviously, we must seek to exchange technical-scientific information  with countries that are more advanced than we are in this field. “Page 6, to replace the item relation to the Ministry of Agriculture by the following: “With a view to studies and research related to the application of nuclear energy in the field of conservation and preservation of food, the fight against plagues and  harmful insects and agrarian and cattle-raisingactivities.” Justification: “The field of conservation and preservation of food is of vital importance for our development.” Page 6 – replace the item relating to the Staff  of the Armed Forces and Military Ministries by the following: “Military ministries: with a view to utilize military learning, research, manufacture and logistic organizations in the formation of personnel and the development of technicians and special equipment in the sector.” “ Staff of the Armed Forces, with a view to obtaining the necessary coordination  for the best utilization of the military organizations of the Singular Forces in order to fulfill the objectives mentioned in the previous item.” Justification: “The military learning, research, manufacture and logistic organizations depend, exclusively, on the respective military Ministries, with which the linkages of the National Nuclear Energy Commission can be made in a productive way. The intervention of the Armed Forces Staff, according to Decree-law no. 200 (Administrative Reform), can only be understood as an organ of coordination in the planning of that utilization (item 5 of article 5). Page 7 – At the end of the 18^th line, add: “After hearing the National Security Council.” Justification: “It seems that such an important authorization for the future reserves of the country should not be granted through the decision of a single organ; it will be more secure if it is granted as a result of a hearing at the National Security Council.”

The President of the Republic: I give the floor to the Minister of the Army.

The Minister of the Army: Mr. President, members of the Council, first of all I praise the work presented  to us, with all the minor shortcoming it may have. Obviously, it opened all angles for this dialogue we are having which will facilitate the elaboration of the final document, conveying the decision of the President of the Republic. At the outset, I agree with Minister Macedo Soares, who translated my own ideas when he said that we should not give too much emphasis to “peaceful purposes.” We should not bring self limitations to the use of nuclear energy, in certain circumstances. He mentioned the international conventions prior to World War II, which prohibited the use of gas; I have spent a long time in Germany, soon after the war, and had easy access to the records of  German mobilization, opened to the Allies, and saw that perfume factories, etc, were changed, in non-compliance with all treaties that Germany had signed, into factories of war instruments for the war it had started. Another problem raised by Minister Costa Cavalcanti regards the links of his Ministry with other Ministries, through the National Nuclear Energy Commission. On this question, I wish to express the full agreement of the Ministry of the Army with the point of view expressed by one Minister who, despite being the head of a civilian portfolio, also has a military upbringing and is a great technician in the field. As for the item relating to the Armed Forces Staff and the military Ministries, I also consider it inadequate in the way it is formulated. The Minister of Planning himself already offered a way that seems to lead to the formulation of a less doubtful document about the aspect of functions. I also wish to express my full agreement with the document from the Ministry of the Navy, which I read to-day, and I propose the expression “Coordination of military matters at the Armed Forces Staff,” which is a specific task ot the President’s  Staff. We must be careful when using the term coordination, because sometimes it is impossible. The Armed Forces Staff, however, have this task and can fulfill it. Then it will be necessary to place the military Ministries and the Armed Forces Staff in different items, giving to the latter, as the President’s Staff, in his position as Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces, the possibility and the task to coordinate the action of the military Ministries  in this sector. As for the problem of the creation of technical cadres, I wish to reiterate not only my offer but the Army’s  desire to cooperate and I am sure also that of the Navy and the Air Force, because we are students of this issue as a professional duty. We are not only interested in collaborating, but also to follow the evolution of this question in other countries, as has been done since the invention of gunpowder, because all countries, and all military organizations, endeavor to prevent what is known as the technical surprise, which is what defeats nations. In this sense I want to emphasize the problem of nuclear energy. No country, in the military field, can be unmindful of the evolution of technology, whatever it may be, and hence our interest and also our effort, which added up and integrated under the leadership of the Minister of Education and Culture, can offer a lot. I believe, indeed, that the current preoccupation of the Government in bringing back to Brazil our technicians who are abroad, should not be too much emphasized, because  a sovereign nation of 80 million inhabitants, with so many worthwhile people here, should not start an effort by making it dependent on this return. On the contrary, based on my own experience I can say: I believe that the creation of a picture of interests in the technological field – together with the standards of teaching – will lure them back, as we have achieved in the Army, in the electronic field, in a smaller scale. Great capacities were attracted back to Brazil because of more convenient salaries and also because of technical factors. General Edmundo de Macedo Soares already showed that he himself was an example, in another branch of the Army.  To be honest I think it is a little humiliating for a Nation that possesses so many valuable individuals, that already possesses technological cadres, and wants to make an effort in a new direction, to have to do it based on those who are abroad. On the contrary, I believe they can be surpassed by those who are here, according to their political leanings. So, they can be attracted to this effort and I believe we should facilitate that return. It may also be that they are abroad for other reasons which we cannot overcome. To conclude, Mr. President, I am convinced that this meeting is a dialogue, an understanding with the Chief of Staff, and accordingly we will offer to the Secretariat of the Council the notes we made from the reading of the document, because I can see that this debate does not end with regard to the elaboration of the document, which in the last analysis belongs to the President of the Republic, since our dialogue is merely for assistance. This is all I had to say.

The President of the Republic: I thank the collaboration of the Minister of the Army, particularly with regard to the subsidiary information to the Guidelines, those related to the formation of technicians, as well as for the offer and desire of the Army to collaborate in this sector. The Minister of Aeronautics has the floor.       

The Minister of Aeronautics: Mr. President, members of the Council. I agree with the pertinent proposals and the rightful concepts from all the Ministers who preceded mr. Therefore, I do not wish to repeat the obvious. Perhaps it will be appropriate to deal with item 3.2.1, on the  functions of the Ministry of Mines and Energy regarding the links with the Ministries, as well as the placing of the Armed Forces Staff and the military Ministries in separate items. Besides, I wish to confirm the cooperation that the Air Force can bring to this field so important to the national interest. At the Aeronautical Technical Center we posses a subcritical reactor that is in operation since 1960, and so we have entered the field of personnel formation. In the field of research we are now developing a niobium project and going into thorium and uranium, as well as a titanium project, taking up the technology of zirconium and thorium. We have also entered the industrial field, since the Department of Materials of the Air Force Institute of Technology is the only organ in the country that possesses an industrial furnace for vacuum fusion. Despite its small dimensions, it allow us to smelt equipment, including titanium parts for private industry. This is what I had to say.

The President of the Republic: Thank you very much. The Chief of the Armed Forces Staff has the floor.

The Chief of the Armed Forces Staff : Mr. President, members of the Council. Considering the observations already made, the main suggestion from the Armed Forces Staff is the question of aerial surveys. Since we are going to stimulate national efforts in the field of nuclear energy, we are certainly going to increase prospection. As far as geological prospection is concerned, there is confusion about permits, and perhaps this document, which will contain guidelines, may define this question. The control of activities related to aerial survey is regulated by the Armed Forces Staff since 1948 by special legislation, enacted when the modern prospection techniques through equipment that emerged later: magnetometers, scintillometers, with wide application in the nuclear energy sector. The Mining Code, which is a law dating from 1967, already pointed to a new concept by stating in Article 91: “A mining company that possesses proven resources and methods of aerial prospection can request permission to obtain generic knowledge  through these methods, with a view to getting preliminary regional information needed for the drafting of requests and research permits in the form set by the regulation of this Code.” Its second paragraph states further: “The permission will be granted by express authorization from the Director of the Department of Mineral Production, with prior agreement by the National Security Council.”  Therefore, perhaps it is opportune that the Guidelines state that permits for aerial prospection with a view to searching nuclear minerals will fall under the purview of the National Security Council, because it is clear that interested parties believe that the permit for aerial survey also includes the use of the airplane for such research. This is the suggestion I wished to make.

The President of the Republic: Do the Chiefs of the Army, Navy and Air Force Staffs have any observation to add? I believe you have already assisted the Ministers and explained your views, but if you have any observation regarding what was said here, I shall give you the floor.

Navy Chief of Staff: I just ask your permission to stress the need for the priority consideration, still to-day, of the proposal made by the Minister of Planning about the convenience of resolving the question of the adoption, or not, of the expression “for peaceful purposes.”

The President of the Republic: This question is being very well thought over and will be taken into consideration. Any Minister wishes to take the floor for an observation?

The Minister of the Interior: My Ministry does not have an organ dealing with this subject, and for that reason we examined personally, with all due attention, the document that was distributed, with which, in principle, we of course agree, taking into consideration the observations from the Ministers of the Navy and External Relations, which improve some aspects of the drafting without prejudice to its objectives.  However, it is also essential to me that in this document, which will set the policy of the Government, the intended infrastructure to reach the desired objectives is also considered, as well as the conditions of work that will be created, because without them, our technicians will not have due employment. Our opinion is that the National Nuclear Energy Commission (CNEN), a bureaucratic organ subject to administrative hindrances, should have the primary function of a consultation and of guidance on nuclear policy. We believe, therefore, that it is necessary to create an executive agency, either governmental or not, according to the definition to be given to it, with the aim of realizing, in the shortest possible delay, the autonomous use of nuclear energy, according to the provisions of the document that was presented, without the limitation “for peaceful purposes,” as has been said. We have already in Brazil the example of the National Petroleum Council which was considered unable to implement the establish the petroleum policy and then gave rise to Petrobrás, which is to-day a national patrimony. The great public works that will be taken up in this sector, as Minister Magalhães Pinto has stressed, cannot be brought forth if there is not, correspondingly, a great organizations to turn them into reality. This is our proposal, that a form of establishing an executive agency to carry out the Government policy in this sector be established.

The President of the Republic: You have mentioned, by analogy, the National Petroleum Council and Petrobrás. Obviously the National Petroleum Council is able, to the extent that it provides guidance to Petrobrás on the petroleum policy. It is under the Council. Now we are proceeding to the creation of an organ to carry out the nuclear energy policy.

The Minister of the Interior: This is the aspect.

The President of the Republic: For the time being, an organ that works in this direction already exists. I believe that when there is the need to have a Ministry of Science and Technology, when we are in a position to do something concrete in this sector, this organ will naturally emerge. We may already make suggestions, such as your proposal, but the truth is that the National Nuclear Energy Commission is seriously engaged and exists within the organs that already produce something. It guides, studies, controls and follows with care all work that is done in this sector. I know, indeed, that it exists in the great University of São Paulo, where there is a reactor that works in mining and other fields of activity. This organ, therefore, will emerge as an executive agency, in due time. The Minister of Justice has the floor.  

The Minister of Justice: Mr. President, members of the Council, I have just two observations. One is on the system used in the document , which really deserves a thorough revision of its merit. The other regards item 3.2.1, page 7, when it deals with the functions of the Ministry of Mines and Energy through the National Nuclear Energy Commission, “to coordinate and approve the programs of the Research and Education Centers devoted to the field of nuclear energy.” This matter falls under the purview of the National Nuclear Energy Commission only at the technical level. Since the education programs are a matter for the congregations of the universities, can the programs of mathematics, nuclear metallurgy, theoretical physics, depend from the approval of this organ of the Ministry of Mines and Energy? I believe, therefore, that this text should be clarified or deleted. I think it interferes with the autonomy of the universities, which obviously are responsible for the elaboration of their programs of teaching and research. These are the observations I wished to make.

The President of the Republic: They will be taken into consideration, but I believe there should be interference at the technical level.

The Minister of Justice: Precisely.

The Minister of Mines and Energy: The law that created the National Nuclear Energy Commission mentions that approval, but it is obvious that it is not about the program of mathematics, etc. It is the research directly related to the sector.

The President of the Republic: It is research, and not theoretical teaching, classic teaching, and for that reason the research center in the sector must be controlled and approved by the Commission.

The Minister of Mines and Energy: Including because there are budget allotments for these Centers.

The President of the Republic: The text can stay as it is. The Minister of Transportation has the floor.

The Minister of Transportation: Mr. President, members of the Council, since the main objective is the development of nuclear energy in Brazil, I understand that excessive restrictions or limitations about technology and capitals may even prevent this development. I think that this problem should be divided in two stages. Initially, a certain liberal attitude, until a certain level is attained, and afterwards a more independent policy should be adopted, all of it considering that in the international field the national interests of each State always prevail. Therefore, in my view, the policy at first should allow the achievement of a certain technical level, with small limitations and restrictions, and from there we would proceed to another, more independent stage.

The President of the Republic: But general guidelines cannot include stages.

The Minister of Transportation: However, limitations on technology and capitals have been discussed.

The President of the Republic: We have understood. The Chief of the National Information Service has the floor.

The Chief of the National Information Service: Mr, President, Councillors, the National Information Service already possesses very wide documentation about nuclear energy. I believe, indeed, that we have some experience, because officials from my branch have been participating in commissions that travel abroad, as advisers or as members. All the documentation, all this small experience has been conveyed to the National Security Council, an organ for which the National Information Service also works. For this reason, the National Information Service received with great enthusiasm the excellent paper prepared by the Secretariat of the National Security Council, and has some observations on it. More of form than of substance. The first regards the great merit of the document, now presented to the National Security Council, defining in a very precise manner the responsibilities on the formulation and execution of the national nuclear energy policy, as well as those concerning the elaboration and implementation of the respective sectorial programs. Second, since these are Guidelines, perhaps it would be better to confine itself to the main lines and general objectives of the policy, setting the competence of the organs tasked with the elaboration of the programs, in a marked technical character. A  second stage would deal with the definition of functions and responsibilities of the different government agencies, to be proposed by the National Nuclear Energy Commission to the National Security Council, subject to approval by the President of the Republic. Since these are changes more of form than substance, I decline, as I said, to present them in the Plenary but will convey them to the Secretariat of the National Security Council for examination, as the case may be. This is what I had to say.

The President of the Republic: I now request the opinion of the Vice-President of the Republic.

The Vice-President of the Republic: I would like to avail myself of the opportunity you gave me, precisely to highlight that all observations that were made add up to a conclusion deriving from the interest elicited by the document that was submitted to our examination. We should never give the impression that we are approaching a technical subject. I shall limit myself to emphasizing the observations made with regard to the wording of the document, which seems to me a highly important  fact, because it is the expression of the thinking of the organs of the administration. It seems to me, indeed, that we should not lose sight of the sense of some of the words and expressions, something that was already stressed, for instance: when one speaks of “organs under the jurisdiction” of the Ministry of Mines and Energy, it would be better to say “organs subordinated.” I also think that the question of physical and juridical entities that could be considered Brazilian or foreign should be very clear. If this issue is not appropriately examined and resolved in the document, it will only provoke many questions, all of them of the highest importance. We know that the issue of nationalization of juridical entities is among those that can only be resolved by law, and this is not part of this kind of document. We already have a definition of what is a foreign juridical entity and a national juridical entity, so it is not worthwhile to create here different conditions, in order to make a certain concession or not. What really is important is that the agency that has to deal with this question verify not only the organization and constitution of the juridical person, but also even the trust it should enjoy, even as a Brazilian entity, in order to entrust an undertaking to it. Under this criterion, we would have to examine the observations that were made mainly by the Minister of External Relations on the issue of the measures in the external sphere. We need to be clear in our minds that not all measures in the external sphere might be those that are set in an international  document, and so that there is no doubt in this regard, it would be useful to better define such measures. I just want to say to you and to the members of the Council that these observations stem from my desire to demonstrate my interest in the subject.

The President of the Republic : I would now request the Minister of External Relations to summarize for us the text of the Treaty we signed in Mexico, which is called Treaty on the Non-proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.

The Minister of External relations: Mr. President, I do not have…

The President of the Republic (interrupting): Minister, just the essence. We signed a treaty in which we committed not to think of developing  nuclear energy for purposes of war. So, or I should say, we signed a treaty in which nuclear energy…

The Minister of External Relations: The treaty prohibits… Article 18 “Contracting Parties may carry out explosions of nuclear devices for peaceful purposes – including…

The President of the Republic (interrupting): I request attention.

The Minister of External Relations: …including explosions that involve devices similar to those used in nuclear weapons or collaborate with third parties for the same purposed, provided that they do so in accordance with the provisions of this Article and the other Articles of the Treaty, particularly Articles 1 and 5.

The President of the Republic: This is the essence.

The Minister of External Relations: The treaty permits explosions for peaceful purposes, but definitely prohibits them for war purposes. Even so there is strong international pressure, because it is said that from the knowledge of this matter, including from the peaceful explosions, it will be easy for many countries to manufacture the atomic bomb. So, if we do not emphasize in the document that the use is for peaceful purposes, I have the impression, Mr. President, that we would be under much stronger pressure, because there will be doubt about the intention of Brazil. As the Minister of the Army has stressed, in case of any emergency we would be able to use what we already possess.

The President of the Republic: Obviously.

The Minister of External Relations:  As secret as the documents may be, they can always be leaked and be known by the big powers and the Latin American countries, those that signed the Treaty of Mexico with us. I have the impression that they will have a very different judgment between our intentions and our statements. In spite of my belief that indeed in a dire moment for the history of the country what is meant for peaceful purposes may change into war purposes, I believe there will be no harm for us to give some emphasis to the peaceful uses, because this will provide us with cover for the several statements and the intransigent defense that we are taking, because even for peaceful purposes we must have unity of opinion, we must be firm, because otherwise we will not succeed. There is a deliberate intention to prevent that this issue be known to us, that it be known to other countries that do not belong to the Atomic Club.

The President of the Republic: I wanted this clarification exactly because of the proposals by the Minister of Industry and Commerce and the Minister of the Army, who supported and emphasized that we are bound by  contract. A contract, however, that does not prevent us from doing research, mining and even from building devices that may explode. We can say all that in defining our intention for peaceful purposes, because we signed an international contract, which allowed us to go to Geneva and also defend our sovereign right as a country to deal with this subject as an international power without any restriction.

The Minister of External Relations: Mr. President, I have the impression that we can consider it this way in the Preamble or the beginning. To say that the Guidelines envisage the application for peaceful purposes, and then there will be no need for repetition.

The President of the Republic: That would be omission. We should emphasize the utilization for peaceful purposes. I consider this as being the chief point, because the others are problems more of form, that will be taken into consideration. All proposals will be considered for the final wording to be undertaken by the General Secretariat of the Council, precisely on the basis of the proposals made. Obviously some of the proposals are debatable and I have to decide whether to accept them or not. In any case the General Secretariat of the Council shall distribute the new draft very soon, accepting many of the suggestions, including those of form, very well presented by the competent organ, the Ministry of Education and Culture. You have rendered great service to the President of the Republic by discussing in all freedom, cooperating in a remarkable way for us to achieve a definitive document that shall be the starting point for the program, for the development in the fields of research, mining, education, technique, etc. The General Secretariat elaborated this basic document which, as all documents prepared within closed doors, because it is ultra-secret, needed this airing that was very well done. I am very grateful for the collaboration of everyone, particularly those who demonstrated special interest in the matter and I am sure all Ministers were interested, just like myself, despite not having made my own suggestions. I very much liked the suggestions, especially those from the Vice-President of the Republic, who with his sharp legal mind presented suggestions that will be accepted and taken into consideration. It is now close to one PM and I invite all members for luncheon at Alvorada Palace. The session is closed. (At twelve forty-five PM).

(Signed: Arthur da Costa Silva, President of the National security Council. The signatures of all members and of the Secretary General of the Council follow).